Comments on: The Church and Fighting Over Change http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/ Thu, 24 May 2012 22:02:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Messianic Gentile http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-970 Messianic Gentile Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:00:10 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-970 Trey,<br /><br />By the way, I have reinvested this discussion on my blog. If you wish to pursue it more, I have opened it there to hopefully attract some other view points as well.<br /><br />Many blessings... Trey,

By the way, I have reinvested this discussion on my blog. If you wish to pursue it more, I have opened it there to hopefully attract some other view points as well.

Many blessings…

]]> By: Messianic Gentile http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-969 Messianic Gentile Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:50:09 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-969 Thanks for the gracious response and engagement. That is important, and I appreciate it. May we continue a spirit of love and care with each other here. I am not doubting it, actually, but reinforcing it all the same. I am blessed by the discussion, and I hope others are too.<br /><br />That said (and NOT to undercut it a bit) I disagree with the assessments made here completely. I believe we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I do not wish to find balance in my idol worship, I seek to put a stop to it all together. I am not challenging “comfort zones,” I am obliterating them. Why do you need comfort in church? How did it become a criteria for deciding where to fellowship? We are in the cross-bearing business. There is not a box to think outside of. <br /><br />To say that the “The supper was instituted in the midst of a meal…” is a HUGE understatement. Pilgrims the world over have descended on Jerusalem for the Great Passover Feast! The city is bursting at the seams with people who have come to PARTY! To there for conclude that “The focus is not on the peripherals” is beside the point. It is true, but it does not matter. What matters is that it is a celebration, a party, a foretaste of the Great Eschatological Banquet. And Jesus gives us the foretaste in numerous places with fishes and loaves and wine etc. This kind of reduction is a crime. If you throw a party for me and only sit in silence avoiding eye contact with others, taking a pinch of cracker and a sip of juice from a thimble, don’t be surprised if I don’t come. And when you consider this meal as the centerpiece of the connection of Heaven and Earth, the centerpiece of your worship to God, as vital to your nourishment as a human being and the well being of all of creation, then such a reduction is an insult. Think about it.<br /><br />And then to say that it “all goes back to a heart thing” makes it sound like that reducing it is the right thing to do. But I would challenge that. I think if you reduce it you have shown that your heart is not really in it after all. Again, if you throw me a party like that, I would think you have a lot of something else invested (ie fear) in my party than your heart.<br /><br />And why is it held in a building at all? Shouldn’t our image bearing be displayed upon the creation? And if you hide it under a bushel, reduce it to the somber going-through-the-motions, non-peripheral-“heart thing” that the CoC has traditionally done, AND then condemn others for not doing it this way weekly (AS WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY DONE for generations), then why would you expect it to have any effect on the fallen world? Shouldn’t we not be surprised that it goes IGNORED by those outside? And Shouldn’t it be one of the biggest things to come up for discussion on a post like this from just about every reader? <br /><br />I do not claim to have all the answers. Really, I don’t. But to turn a blind eye to these kind of questions or try to tame them is a serious mistake. They need to be addressed badly.<br /><br />Again, thanks for dealing with me graciously. It is appreciated. I wrestle with these things, I am asking you to as well.<br /><br />Many blessings… Thanks for the gracious response and engagement. That is important, and I appreciate it. May we continue a spirit of love and care with each other here. I am not doubting it, actually, but reinforcing it all the same. I am blessed by the discussion, and I hope others are too.

That said (and NOT to undercut it a bit) I disagree with the assessments made here completely. I believe we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I do not wish to find balance in my idol worship, I seek to put a stop to it all together. I am not challenging “comfort zones,” I am obliterating them. Why do you need comfort in church? How did it become a criteria for deciding where to fellowship? We are in the cross-bearing business. There is not a box to think outside of.

To say that the “The supper was instituted in the midst of a meal…” is a HUGE understatement. Pilgrims the world over have descended on Jerusalem for the Great Passover Feast! The city is bursting at the seams with people who have come to PARTY! To there for conclude that “The focus is not on the peripherals” is beside the point. It is true, but it does not matter. What matters is that it is a celebration, a party, a foretaste of the Great Eschatological Banquet. And Jesus gives us the foretaste in numerous places with fishes and loaves and wine etc. This kind of reduction is a crime. If you throw a party for me and only sit in silence avoiding eye contact with others, taking a pinch of cracker and a sip of juice from a thimble, don’t be surprised if I don’t come. And when you consider this meal as the centerpiece of the connection of Heaven and Earth, the centerpiece of your worship to God, as vital to your nourishment as a human being and the well being of all of creation, then such a reduction is an insult. Think about it.

And then to say that it “all goes back to a heart thing” makes it sound like that reducing it is the right thing to do. But I would challenge that. I think if you reduce it you have shown that your heart is not really in it after all. Again, if you throw me a party like that, I would think you have a lot of something else invested (ie fear) in my party than your heart.

And why is it held in a building at all? Shouldn’t our image bearing be displayed upon the creation? And if you hide it under a bushel, reduce it to the somber going-through-the-motions, non-peripheral-“heart thing” that the CoC has traditionally done, AND then condemn others for not doing it this way weekly (AS WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY DONE for generations), then why would you expect it to have any effect on the fallen world? Shouldn’t we not be surprised that it goes IGNORED by those outside? And Shouldn’t it be one of the biggest things to come up for discussion on a post like this from just about every reader?

I do not claim to have all the answers. Really, I don’t. But to turn a blind eye to these kind of questions or try to tame them is a serious mistake. They need to be addressed badly.

Again, thanks for dealing with me graciously. It is appreciated. I wrestle with these things, I am asking you to as well.

Many blessings…

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-961 Trey Morgan Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:07:02 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-961 James, excellent thoughts here. We ARE guilty of not spending enough time on communion. It needs to be a bigger part of our services. Or, let me put it this way. You can put too much emphasis on it. I also agree that communion is a heart thing. All ways has been. People have argued for years about, should we break the bread in to pieces before we pass it, should we have one cup or divide it into many, should the bread be matzio crackers (which I personally think are gross tasting) or real bread, should the wine be real wine or just any kind of "fruit of the vine," should it be red grape juice or white grape juice, and should we be sad and tearful like a funeral or happy and joyful like it's a celebration. The debates have always been there, but I think it all goes back to the heart thing. It wasn't about room, food, the way it was broken or passed, it was about the remembrance. It was about the relationships. It's all about the sacrifice not size of the bread. When we make the focus the peripheral we miss the whole point of the Lord's Supper.<br /><br />We could go on forever on this thought. You're right this would make a great post. James, excellent thoughts here. We ARE guilty of not spending enough time on communion. It needs to be a bigger part of our services. Or, let me put it this way. You can put too much emphasis on it. I also agree that communion is a heart thing. All ways has been. People have argued for years about, should we break the bread in to pieces before we pass it, should we have one cup or divide it into many, should the bread be matzio crackers (which I personally think are gross tasting) or real bread, should the wine be real wine or just any kind of “fruit of the vine,” should it be red grape juice or white grape juice, and should we be sad and tearful like a funeral or happy and joyful like it’s a celebration. The debates have always been there, but I think it all goes back to the heart thing. It wasn’t about room, food, the way it was broken or passed, it was about the remembrance. It was about the relationships. It’s all about the sacrifice not size of the bread. When we make the focus the peripheral we miss the whole point of the Lord’s Supper.

We could go on forever on this thought. You’re right this would make a great post.

]]> By: The Preacher's Household: http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-960 The Preacher's Household: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:48:10 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-960 In looking at the comments on this post I had a thought come to mind. I have been seen as a "change agent" for sometime, although I would not prefer that tag. I preached a sermon 13 years ago. It was part of a series looking at the life of David. In 1 Chronicles 13 there is an incident as the men are moving the Ark of the Covenant specifically in verse 9. Uzzah is struck dead. Point one of my two point sermon is 'God has a way He wants things done'. Point two, 'When we do things God's way it might not always look like others expect & we can have a good time' (1 Chronicles 15:13-29). Some who want change want to throw the baby out with the bath-water. There are standards & patterns. <br /><br />I heard an example of this recently. The person was speaking of a school in which a teacher could be punished for challenging a student who said two plus two was five. The observation was made, "in some other possible reality, two plus two might equal five". I understand thinking outside the box. Some of the best developments of modern time came from thinking outside the box. But two plus two is four! <br /><br />Thinking outside the box makes us uncomfortable. An example that comes to mind is the "The Lord's Snack". I agree we need to work more toward the communion it was designed to be. I will be glad to write more at a different time, maybe on our blog, about my efforts. Short course, The focus is not on the peripherals. The focus is on the body and the blood. The supper was instituted in the midst of a meal and was carried on in Corinth in the context of a meal. The other food there was peripheral. We can, and maybe should, have other food but it is not the point!<br /><br />Thank you for the opportunity to think this through out loud with others. <br /><br />James In looking at the comments on this post I had a thought come to mind. I have been seen as a “change agent” for sometime, although I would not prefer that tag. I preached a sermon 13 years ago. It was part of a series looking at the life of David. In 1 Chronicles 13 there is an incident as the men are moving the Ark of the Covenant specifically in verse 9. Uzzah is struck dead. Point one of my two point sermon is ‘God has a way He wants things done’. Point two, ‘When we do things God’s way it might not always look like others expect & we can have a good time’ (1 Chronicles 15:13-29). Some who want change want to throw the baby out with the bath-water. There are standards & patterns.

I heard an example of this recently. The person was speaking of a school in which a teacher could be punished for challenging a student who said two plus two was five. The observation was made, “in some other possible reality, two plus two might equal five”. I understand thinking outside the box. Some of the best developments of modern time came from thinking outside the box. But two plus two is four!

Thinking outside the box makes us uncomfortable. An example that comes to mind is the “The Lord’s Snack”. I agree we need to work more toward the communion it was designed to be. I will be glad to write more at a different time, maybe on our blog, about my efforts. Short course, The focus is not on the peripherals. The focus is on the body and the blood. The supper was instituted in the midst of a meal and was carried on in Corinth in the context of a meal. The other food there was peripheral. We can, and maybe should, have other food but it is not the point!

Thank you for the opportunity to think this through out loud with others.

James

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-953 Trey Morgan Sun, 04 Feb 2007 05:33:44 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-953 agent b ... simply an example. agent b … simply an example.

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-952 Trey Morgan Sun, 04 Feb 2007 05:33:20 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-952 MG ...<br /><br />I'm always honored when you visit my blog. I like the way you challenge my thinking and my comfort zone. I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to share what's on you heart. Although I'm not sure we see eye to eye on everything I really love your heart and your sinserity. <br /><br />While, I'm still digesting your last post. I still thing we may see more eye to eye on things than you think. <br /><br />I love your idea of "tailgating with Jesus." I think that is exactly something Jesus would have done. I know many who have tried outreach just like that. I've had a friend that has for years taken socks and clothes (in the winter) to the homeless living in a certain area in Amarillo. It's a blessing to hear of his ministry. When he comes to their bridge on Wednesdays bringing sandwiches and clothes ... they always welcome him as the "sock man." Too cool.<br /><br />Yes, I have enjoyed Wright's book, "Simply Christian." Can't wait to read it a second time. Extremely challenging. <br /><br />Blessings ... MG …

I’m always honored when you visit my blog. I like the way you challenge my thinking and my comfort zone. I’m glad you feel comfortable enough to share what’s on you heart. Although I’m not sure we see eye to eye on everything I really love your heart and your sinserity.

While, I’m still digesting your last post. I still thing we may see more eye to eye on things than you think.

I love your idea of “tailgating with Jesus.” I think that is exactly something Jesus would have done. I know many who have tried outreach just like that. I’ve had a friend that has for years taken socks and clothes (in the winter) to the homeless living in a certain area in Amarillo. It’s a blessing to hear of his ministry. When he comes to their bridge on Wednesdays bringing sandwiches and clothes … they always welcome him as the “sock man.” Too cool.

Yes, I have enjoyed Wright’s book, “Simply Christian.” Can’t wait to read it a second time. Extremely challenging.

Blessings …

]]> By: Agent B http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-950 Agent B Sun, 04 Feb 2007 03:45:35 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-950 Man...no offense but...replacing gospel meetings with "Friends Day" doesn't sound too change-ish. Man…no offense but…replacing gospel meetings with “Friends Day” doesn’t sound too change-ish.

]]> By: Liz Moore http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-947 Liz Moore Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:53:50 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-947 Thank you for your encouraging words on my blog. And I say amen to your post. Change for the sake of change is never good. But if we are following the bible and listening to Jesus, we are going to be changing every day. Growth requires change. And if we are growing we are going to be changing to look and smell more like Him every day. Thank you for your encouraging words on my blog. And I say amen to your post. Change for the sake of change is never good. But if we are following the bible and listening to Jesus, we are going to be changing every day. Growth requires change. And if we are growing we are going to be changing to look and smell more like Him every day.

]]> By: Messianic Gentile http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-946 Messianic Gentile Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:00:55 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-946 Trey,<br /><br />I am all about CHANGE. I am what many call a CHANGE AGENT, though I would prefer the label AGENT OF NEW CREATION, if I could choose one. I don’t dither over what should stay the same etc, there is too much that is changing, will change and cannot be stopped to worry about the minors.<br /><br />The church is dying. We are in the death throes now. It is happening as a judgment of God, and we cannot stop it. Our idolatry has warranted it. The modern western church is a puppet of the western economic empire. (As to avoid unpacking that all day, check out the following book: Colossians Remixed by Walsh and Keesmaat (I have blogged on it elsewhere too).)<br /><br />How about for starters, we in the church sell everything we own and give it to the church and/or the poor? Why has no one mentioned that as a needed change? Are we the Body of Christ or some dull witless quasi-spiritual Sunday breakfast club? I really can’t believe people who say they love that. That is warped. It is self-deceiving. And so often, the preacher is the only person to speak a fresh word in these services, and even then he too, in many cases, recycles sermons. I mean brother Doe will utter the same words over the lords snack before you break a pinch off of a cracker that was baked in a mass cracker producing oven in Brooklyn, NY as he uttered last time it was his turn to speak. The preacher, if he is serious, which God bless them usually they are –at least early in their careers – will exegete, study and plan a fresh word for Sunday. He will care for the widows and orphans; he will clean and repair the place; he will guard secret shames that come out in the confidence of pastoral counseling and really pray for those in this flock and then he will get fired and run out of town for all this trouble by the very people CLAIMING to be the church. Hogwash! And that is presuming the preacher really does those things and is not preaching #17 this week or some sermon he ripped off from the internet or a book.<br /><br />And then there is the lords snack. See my post here (http://bedevilingdetails.blogspot.com/2006/11/communion-cafe-church-is-only.html) for more thoughts on that. What a mockery of the King’s Table we make week after week. A pinch of cracker? In all my life, I have yet to worship in a church where someone takes the time to lovingly bake the bread. I know it happens in some places, but I have never participated in that. And why does it not even occur to anyone? Convenience? That is something the western economic empire sells to consumers, and has nothing to do with church. <br /><br />I think we need to chuck the whole idea of “pattern” as we currently use it in the Church of Christ. You can study it all day, as we pursue it, and not find an ounce of love or life in it. It is an idol. Anything you can make that has no God Breathed Spirit in it, can be an idol when you begin to worship it, take your identity from it and cling to it for all you are worth. Rather, we need to “be the Body of Christ.” I have room for growth here myself, but to deny this is bunk. The world is dying around us and historically we have focused entirely on what goes on between our walls. Thank goodness we don’t have a piano. The Bible does not care one way or the other about pianos! Never mentions them. But we hang soooooooo much on what the Bible does not say! As if we are making a cake. Must follow the recipe. It calls for eggs, but not peanut butter. God did not say peanut butter, so whether you like it or not, you will burn in Hell for eternity if you put peanut butter in his cake! And, oh yeah, because He loves you. (%$*&^!)<br /><br />We have misconstrued what the Body of Christ is. It is not something WE can make, build, duplicate or replicate. That would at best be a clone! Call her Dolly. In Genesis 1 & 3, God creates a human being. This human is partly earth and partly heaven. They are the image of God. In 2:7, God blows His Spirit into the form and it comes alive. (Trey, you recently read Wright’s Simply Christian –recall how he discusses that in ancient times when one king conquers another, he sets up statues of himself in the foreign land so that the newly conquered people will know who is in charge now. Well the humans of Genesis 1 & 3 are his statues, only they have Spirit in them, and they are not statues. They are far far more than that. But they are image bearers all the same.) In the opening scenes of ACTS, the body is formed and gathered in a room when a mighty wind/breath/spirit comes rushing in on them. The image bearer comes alive once again. You cannot duplicate this or follow a recipe or pattern and achieve this! And if you do, Habakkuk convicts you because your idol has no spirit, no breath, within it.<br /><br />Thus, I see the days of the modern western church coming to an end. Change is inevitable. And needed. And all the clinging to the old will only make your judgment that much harder. And Yes it is what God wants. I would prefer it if I had never taken the red pill. But the world the modern west has constructed and the “church” it has puppeted are all crashing down. Even several of your commentators here have suggested that they are more down with change now than they were just a few years ago. Guess what? You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. And in ten more years, you will be surprised that you resisted as much as you do now. <br /><br />Dad and I were just discussing this week how Jesus, rather than gathering himself up for a sleepy song and prayer service once (or three times) a week in seclusion of a “church building” is out leading a campaign for the end of the world as we know it every day. We are considering a new movement we call "Tailgating with Jesus." Bringing food onto the mean streets in the back of my truck, preaching there and rallying the dry bones of the valley to come together with the word of God, to take on FLESH and SPIRIT and stand as an exceedingly great ARMY.<br /><br />Does any of that sound like “church” where you go? Which parts?<br /><br />Thanks for posting. I think I will begin posting too.<br /><br />You are a gracious host, Trey. I do not wish to be difficult. But I operate in a different realm. I invite you and your readers to check it out.<br /><br />Many blessings… Trey,

I am all about CHANGE. I am what many call a CHANGE AGENT, though I would prefer the label AGENT OF NEW CREATION, if I could choose one. I don’t dither over what should stay the same etc, there is too much that is changing, will change and cannot be stopped to worry about the minors.

The church is dying. We are in the death throes now. It is happening as a judgment of God, and we cannot stop it. Our idolatry has warranted it. The modern western church is a puppet of the western economic empire. (As to avoid unpacking that all day, check out the following book: Colossians Remixed by Walsh and Keesmaat (I have blogged on it elsewhere too).)

How about for starters, we in the church sell everything we own and give it to the church and/or the poor? Why has no one mentioned that as a needed change? Are we the Body of Christ or some dull witless quasi-spiritual Sunday breakfast club? I really can’t believe people who say they love that. That is warped. It is self-deceiving. And so often, the preacher is the only person to speak a fresh word in these services, and even then he too, in many cases, recycles sermons. I mean brother Doe will utter the same words over the lords snack before you break a pinch off of a cracker that was baked in a mass cracker producing oven in Brooklyn, NY as he uttered last time it was his turn to speak. The preacher, if he is serious, which God bless them usually they are –at least early in their careers – will exegete, study and plan a fresh word for Sunday. He will care for the widows and orphans; he will clean and repair the place; he will guard secret shames that come out in the confidence of pastoral counseling and really pray for those in this flock and then he will get fired and run out of town for all this trouble by the very people CLAIMING to be the church. Hogwash! And that is presuming the preacher really does those things and is not preaching #17 this week or some sermon he ripped off from the internet or a book.

And then there is the lords snack. See my post here (http://bedevilingdetails.blogspot.com/2006/11/communion-cafe-church-is-only.html) for more thoughts on that. What a mockery of the King’s Table we make week after week. A pinch of cracker? In all my life, I have yet to worship in a church where someone takes the time to lovingly bake the bread. I know it happens in some places, but I have never participated in that. And why does it not even occur to anyone? Convenience? That is something the western economic empire sells to consumers, and has nothing to do with church.

I think we need to chuck the whole idea of “pattern” as we currently use it in the Church of Christ. You can study it all day, as we pursue it, and not find an ounce of love or life in it. It is an idol. Anything you can make that has no God Breathed Spirit in it, can be an idol when you begin to worship it, take your identity from it and cling to it for all you are worth. Rather, we need to “be the Body of Christ.” I have room for growth here myself, but to deny this is bunk. The world is dying around us and historically we have focused entirely on what goes on between our walls. Thank goodness we don’t have a piano. The Bible does not care one way or the other about pianos! Never mentions them. But we hang soooooooo much on what the Bible does not say! As if we are making a cake. Must follow the recipe. It calls for eggs, but not peanut butter. God did not say peanut butter, so whether you like it or not, you will burn in Hell for eternity if you put peanut butter in his cake! And, oh yeah, because He loves you. (%$*&^!)

We have misconstrued what the Body of Christ is. It is not something WE can make, build, duplicate or replicate. That would at best be a clone! Call her Dolly. In Genesis 1 & 3, God creates a human being. This human is partly earth and partly heaven. They are the image of God. In 2:7, God blows His Spirit into the form and it comes alive. (Trey, you recently read Wright’s Simply Christian –recall how he discusses that in ancient times when one king conquers another, he sets up statues of himself in the foreign land so that the newly conquered people will know who is in charge now. Well the humans of Genesis 1 & 3 are his statues, only they have Spirit in them, and they are not statues. They are far far more than that. But they are image bearers all the same.) In the opening scenes of ACTS, the body is formed and gathered in a room when a mighty wind/breath/spirit comes rushing in on them. The image bearer comes alive once again. You cannot duplicate this or follow a recipe or pattern and achieve this! And if you do, Habakkuk convicts you because your idol has no spirit, no breath, within it.

Thus, I see the days of the modern western church coming to an end. Change is inevitable. And needed. And all the clinging to the old will only make your judgment that much harder. And Yes it is what God wants. I would prefer it if I had never taken the red pill. But the world the modern west has constructed and the “church” it has puppeted are all crashing down. Even several of your commentators here have suggested that they are more down with change now than they were just a few years ago. Guess what? You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. And in ten more years, you will be surprised that you resisted as much as you do now.

Dad and I were just discussing this week how Jesus, rather than gathering himself up for a sleepy song and prayer service once (or three times) a week in seclusion of a “church building” is out leading a campaign for the end of the world as we know it every day. We are considering a new movement we call “Tailgating with Jesus.” Bringing food onto the mean streets in the back of my truck, preaching there and rallying the dry bones of the valley to come together with the word of God, to take on FLESH and SPIRIT and stand as an exceedingly great ARMY.

Does any of that sound like “church” where you go? Which parts?

Thanks for posting. I think I will begin posting too.

You are a gracious host, Trey. I do not wish to be difficult. But I operate in a different realm. I invite you and your readers to check it out.

Many blessings…

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-944 Trey Morgan Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:13:18 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-944 Royce ... I'm honored you stopped by and commented. I enjoy your blog very much. Thanks for coming by.<br /><br /><br />James - No question mark for you. It was more of an amazement thing. Nothing suprises me anymore. I was a little floored. Royce … I’m honored you stopped by and commented. I enjoy your blog very much. Thanks for coming by.

James – No question mark for you. It was more of an amazement thing. Nothing suprises me anymore. I was a little floored.

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-943 Trey Morgan Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:11:29 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-943 Angie ... thanks for coming by ... I remember you now. Bruce has talked about you. I called him tonight and he was excited to hear about you. He gets on the blog pretty regularly, but he's too shy to comment(I'm trying to drag him out with this comment). He said he'd get your address and give you a yell. <br /><br />Hopefully you'll hear from him soon. They are doing well in Juneau AK. <br /><br />Thanks again for stopping by. Angie … thanks for coming by … I remember you now. Bruce has talked about you. I called him tonight and he was excited to hear about you. He gets on the blog pretty regularly, but he’s too shy to comment(I’m trying to drag him out with this comment). He said he’d get your address and give you a yell.

Hopefully you’ll hear from him soon. They are doing well in Juneau AK.

Thanks again for stopping by.

]]> By: The Preacher's Household: http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-942 The Preacher's Household: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:08:04 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-942 Trey,<br /><br />If the question mark on your last comment to me was because you would like more details look at our blog. I have a link there. <br /><br />James Trey,

If the question mark on your last comment to me was because you would like more details look at our blog. I have a link there.

James

]]> By: Royce Ogle http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-941 Royce Ogle Sat, 03 Feb 2007 02:11:51 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-941 Much of what we do habitually can be done with little or no faith. We humans are drawn to things that are comfortable and easy. Most of us even sit in the very same pew, in the same spot, week after week.<br /><br />Perhaps a good exercise might be for us to ask ourselves this question. What am I, and my congregation doing that could not be done if God suddenly died? I fear that much of our activity requires little of His involvement.<br /><br />We should change that!<br /><br />Grace and Peace,<br />Royce Ogle Much of what we do habitually can be done with little or no faith. We humans are drawn to things that are comfortable and easy. Most of us even sit in the very same pew, in the same spot, week after week.

Perhaps a good exercise might be for us to ask ourselves this question. What am I, and my congregation doing that could not be done if God suddenly died? I fear that much of our activity requires little of His involvement.

We should change that!

Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle

]]> By: Angie http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-940 Angie Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:27:47 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-940 Trey, Tim Rush just clued me in that you and Bruce are brothers! Bruce and I were in Portugal together for a chunk of time, and Amanda was one of my dearest friends in Lubbock days - though I'm very sad to say I'm rotten at keeping in touch & have lost touch with them over the years.<br /><br />Since I've started blogging, I've googled them several times to see if maybe they had a blog or something online, but came up empty. The next time you're in touch w/them, would you pass on my e-mail addy? I'd love to re-connect with them!<br /><br />keepintouchwithangie@yahoo.com<br /><br />Thanks, man.<br /><br />It's great to know that you are brothers. Now I have a bit of an idea of what you've had to put up with and how that's contributed to making you the fella you are now!<br /><br />Grace and peace to you! Trey, Tim Rush just clued me in that you and Bruce are brothers! Bruce and I were in Portugal together for a chunk of time, and Amanda was one of my dearest friends in Lubbock days – though I’m very sad to say I’m rotten at keeping in touch & have lost touch with them over the years.

Since I’ve started blogging, I’ve googled them several times to see if maybe they had a blog or something online, but came up empty. The next time you’re in touch w/them, would you pass on my e-mail addy? I’d love to re-connect with them!

keepintouchwithangie@yahoo.com

Thanks, man.

It’s great to know that you are brothers. Now I have a bit of an idea of what you’ve had to put up with and how that’s contributed to making you the fella you are now!

Grace and peace to you!

]]> By: Angie http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-939 Angie Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:05:32 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-939 Hi Trey! What a fun find your blog is! Thanks for taking the initiative to help our blog paths cross. Just from reading through some of your most recent posts, I can tell I'm in for some blessing!<br /><br />It's really, really refreshing to see someone give change a good name! So many advocates of change (for good and right reasons) give it such a bad name b/c of their cynical and arrogant attitudes. I'll be the first to say that our Jesus was quite firm and outright shocking when He turned over tables in the temple while defending the unchangables... But everything was covered in such love!<br /><br />Looking forward to sharing more of this adventure in Christ with you, new friend! Hi Trey! What a fun find your blog is! Thanks for taking the initiative to help our blog paths cross. Just from reading through some of your most recent posts, I can tell I’m in for some blessing!

It’s really, really refreshing to see someone give change a good name! So many advocates of change (for good and right reasons) give it such a bad name b/c of their cynical and arrogant attitudes. I’ll be the first to say that our Jesus was quite firm and outright shocking when He turned over tables in the temple while defending the unchangables… But everything was covered in such love!

Looking forward to sharing more of this adventure in Christ with you, new friend!

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-938 Trey Morgan Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:05:27 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-938 DJG ... I agree, I think we have more caretakers than risktakers ... but I think I see that changing. <br /><br />Most, even me, are more comfortable always keeping things like they are. It moves us out of our comfort zone to try new things. I think the 10 talent man was a risk taker ... and the one talent man a caretaker. Make sense? DJG … I agree, I think we have more caretakers than risktakers … but I think I see that changing.

Most, even me, are more comfortable always keeping things like they are. It moves us out of our comfort zone to try new things. I think the 10 talent man was a risk taker … and the one talent man a caretaker. Make sense?

]]> By: Anonymous http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-937 Anonymous Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:15:33 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-937 Trey,<br /><br />Some may fear change because they see "change" in the same light as "compromise", which is seen as evil.<br /><br />I've often felt that changes of the right kind will make the church more "user friendly" shall we say. I have a member who has a job that requires him to work seven days a week with fairly long hours each day, and he feels guilty about not making each service. What a shame our tradition of 2 required Lord's Day services makes it a difficult situation for him, because if he could make even one, he'd still feel guilty. Some change, of the right kind, is good and prudent. I enjoy your blog. Trey,

Some may fear change because they see “change” in the same light as “compromise”, which is seen as evil.

I’ve often felt that changes of the right kind will make the church more “user friendly” shall we say. I have a member who has a job that requires him to work seven days a week with fairly long hours each day, and he feels guilty about not making each service. What a shame our tradition of 2 required Lord’s Day services makes it a difficult situation for him, because if he could make even one, he’d still feel guilty. Some change, of the right kind, is good and prudent. I enjoy your blog.

]]> By: DJG http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-936 DJG Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:13:40 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-936 Hey Trey,<br />Thanks for stopping by my slice of blog-land. Interesting that I should come here on a day that this is your topic. I have been in a constant state of unrest about the way we "do church" for over a year now. Unlike Paula, I love change, but not just for the sake of change...for the sake of challenge! <br /><br />I am excited about anonymous and their positive experience, but I am afraid that is the exception. We truly have been too busy being "care-takers" and taking care of our own that we have forgotten how to reach out to others. Even this story bothers me some....it is still "come and see" and I think Jesus was about "going and getting"...<br /><br />Thanks for the post...I will be back. Hey Trey,
Thanks for stopping by my slice of blog-land. Interesting that I should come here on a day that this is your topic. I have been in a constant state of unrest about the way we “do church” for over a year now. Unlike Paula, I love change, but not just for the sake of change…for the sake of challenge!

I am excited about anonymous and their positive experience, but I am afraid that is the exception. We truly have been too busy being “care-takers” and taking care of our own that we have forgotten how to reach out to others. Even this story bothers me some….it is still “come and see” and I think Jesus was about “going and getting”…

Thanks for the post…I will be back.

]]> By: Trey Morgan http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-935 Trey Morgan Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:21:52 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-935 Anonymous,<br /><br />Glad to have you "hanging out" here. You've got some great thoughts and ideas, and I appreciate you sharing them with us. <br /><br />Those new people, new Christians, or new visitors that come need to feel welcome and involved. The sooner you get people involved the better. And like you said, they CAN do things that we often think can't be done. <br /><br />It's kind of like little David the giant slayer. When he showed up at the battle with the Philistines he didn't KNOW he couldn't beat Goliath. So he did.<br /><br />We recently had a new person come in and ask about doing something and everyone said, "Doesn't he know that can't be done? Everyone's tried it and it can't be done." Well to make a long story short ... No one told the new guy it couldn't be done and guess what ... yea, he did it. Made it look easy. <br /><br />And embarrassingly I was one of the ones standing over in the corner saying, "Doesn't he know we've never done it that way before?"<br /><br />Ooops.<br /><br />Great thought Annon. Thanks for sharing.<br /><br />Oh, and James, beer in church? WHAT? That's crazy. Anonymous,

Glad to have you “hanging out” here. You’ve got some great thoughts and ideas, and I appreciate you sharing them with us.

Those new people, new Christians, or new visitors that come need to feel welcome and involved. The sooner you get people involved the better. And like you said, they CAN do things that we often think can’t be done.

It’s kind of like little David the giant slayer. When he showed up at the battle with the Philistines he didn’t KNOW he couldn’t beat Goliath. So he did.

We recently had a new person come in and ask about doing something and everyone said, “Doesn’t he know that can’t be done? Everyone’s tried it and it can’t be done.” Well to make a long story short … No one told the new guy it couldn’t be done and guess what … yea, he did it. Made it look easy.

And embarrassingly I was one of the ones standing over in the corner saying, “Doesn’t he know we’ve never done it that way before?”

Ooops.

Great thought Annon. Thanks for sharing.

Oh, and James, beer in church? WHAT? That’s crazy.

]]> By: Anonymous http://treymorgan.net/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/comment-page-1/#comment-934 Anonymous Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:30:29 +0000 http://day3hosts.com/treymorgan/2007/02/the-church-and-fighting-over-change/#comment-934 This is Anonymous again.<br /><br />Kathy was exactly right when she said "Maybe one of the ways churches can change is to help incorpate anyone that comes through the door in some small way so they immediately feel part of the group."<br /><br />Sometimes your BIGGEST risk taker is the person who just walked into your church for the first time. Definately, make them feel welcome. Just talk to them. Hopefully, your church is about kindness and compassion. Show them. Make them want to have what you have. <br /><br />Take it even one step further - don't wait for the new person to come through the door, go out and find them and invite them in. So many people fall through the cracks because they are just average people. On the surface, they appear to have it altogether. But dig deeper and get to really know people. You'll find a lot of people in need of God and a lot of people who either don't know it, or they don't know how to begin a relationship with God. Some people are more than willing, they just feel so far from God they don't know where to begin.<br />Help them make that first big step into your church. Continue to touch base with them each time they return. Eventually they will become more comfortable with attending. They may even begin to look forward to it. A positive change is soon to follow. This is Anonymous again.

Kathy was exactly right when she said “Maybe one of the ways churches can change is to help incorpate anyone that comes through the door in some small way so they immediately feel part of the group.”

Sometimes your BIGGEST risk taker is the person who just walked into your church for the first time. Definately, make them feel welcome. Just talk to them. Hopefully, your church is about kindness and compassion. Show them. Make them want to have what you have.

Take it even one step further – don’t wait for the new person to come through the door, go out and find them and invite them in. So many people fall through the cracks because they are just average people. On the surface, they appear to have it altogether. But dig deeper and get to really know people. You’ll find a lot of people in need of God and a lot of people who either don’t know it, or they don’t know how to begin a relationship with God. Some people are more than willing, they just feel so far from God they don’t know where to begin.
Help them make that first big step into your church. Continue to touch base with them each time they return. Eventually they will become more comfortable with attending. They may even begin to look forward to it. A positive change is soon to follow.

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